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#12221621 Mar 30, 2016 at 05:11 PM · Edited over 2 years ago
Colonel
264 Posts
I have decided a few months ago to host a program. The program really hasn't taken off. I have decided to change how it works.

  1. There should be more than one host. I will not always be available.
  2. If you know something that pertains to real world A/A or A/G combat maneuvering and tactics, etc., say something. Everybody should help everybody if possible. "Peer-to-Peer" learning.
  3. To get help, feel free to post in the "Coach and Critique" forum on this site.
Also note, that I also give private ACT training.

Link to the book: http://www.imagery.vnfawing.com/PDF-Archive/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-and-Maneuvering.pdf

If that link doesn't work:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160316094958/http://www.imagery.vnfawing.com/PDF-Archive/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-and-Maneuvering.pdf
FB (primary), fb237, USS_FB, <ICAO>_FB, STS-FB (Space Shuttle)
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#12224567 Mar 31, 2016 at 01:26 PM
Captain
32 Posts
I assume I would need Mumble, prefferably voice?
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#12225136 Mar 31, 2016 at 04:38 PM · Edited over 2 years ago
Captain
240 Posts
The missile content in the book you linked was quite interesting and helpful, but may not apply well to our missiles with their loft and cruise altitudes and non-PN guidance laws. Also, we cannot see missiles and enemies easily due to screen resolution. Any ideas on how to adapt the techniques from the book to apply better to FG?
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#12225279 Mar 31, 2016 at 05:15 PM
Brigadier Ge...
343 Posts
Great questions, SNOWY1. I hope that others will chime in because it is an important topic to discuss.

First, I don't know which link you are referring to, as there have been many links posted by different crew members about a ton of different topics. Could you ref in a comment?

Second, my advice is to try hard to think first about "similarities" before thinking about differences. This will get you a lot further, a lot more quickly. For example:

Missile energy: Our missiles have been designed to mimic RW missiles by having multiple stages (where appropriate) and realistic ranges. They have also been modeled to have g-limits similar to their RW counterparts. What this means is that we see no-escape zones (NEZs) similar to the RW. Knowing these NEZs relative to 1) the weapon, 2) the target capability, and 3) the target situation can help you choose when to employ different weapons and how. It can also help you decide how you are going to react to weapons when they are used against you.

Missile seeker limits: Our missiles have been modeled to lose their lock if their seeker limits are exceeded. Knowing how you can quickly exceed that angle (or whether you can, given your distance) can be very helpful.

Missile navigation: We owe a special thanks to our developers, as they have modeled our missiles (where appropriate) to "anticipate" your movements and adjust their course accordingly. While this makes our missiles more realistic when compared to modern RW missiles, it also means that you can employ tactics to "fool" them given the right situation. A good example is fooling a missile into terrain, but this can also mean fooling a missile out of energy, since they have no way to conserve it even if they realized your plan!

There are differences too, but most of those are to the defensive pilots advantage. Namely, our missiles don't adjust for terrain (like an AIM120 would), don't conserve fuel for the final attack phase (like many modern missiles do), don't pick the most advantageous altitude and route in BVR shots, can't be fired off-bore, and warn far in advance of when would be realistic in most cases (due to MP messaging).
Raider1

(Combat call-signs: Raid-1, Raid-2)
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#12225374 Mar 31, 2016 at 05:43 PM
Captain
240 Posts
Understood. I was referring to the book linked by fb237. Ask him for any details. Also, after reading your post, I am slightly glad that our missiles are primitive.

How feasible is some kind of simulated range gate pull-off or velocity gate pull-off jamming?
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#12225762 Mar 31, 2016 at 07:43 PM · Edited 3 years ago
Colonel
264 Posts
I prefer to speak over Mumble. I will give advice and instruction mid-flight, and I will use my voice almost always for that. Typing while flying is not easy.

Also, SNOWY1, the missiles use Proportional Navigation now, and are quite accurate. It is possible to defeat Semi-Active Radar Homing (SARH) with the Viggen, and the Fire Control Radar in general for that matter. Thus you can notch and defeat an Rb-71 (AIM-7 variant). We could still work on them a bit more, but they are close enough at this point.
FB (primary), fb237, USS_FB, <ICAO>_FB, STS-FB (Space Shuttle)
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#12225798 Mar 31, 2016 at 07:58 PM · Edited over 2 years ago
Major General
718 Posts
doing 8 g turn in canyon hiding from OPFOR
callsig: hey pinto can I fly with u
roll hard left, punch throttle, new turn
callsig: that canyon looks awesome.
callsig: hey are u guys fighting?
flat spot, doing easier turn at 50 agl
callsig: y u no respond pinto?
climb a little and start typing as fast as possible
crash while typing
swear loudly and wake up wife/kids/cats/neighbors/neighbors goldfish
pinto: yeah you got mumble?
callsig: what's that. where can I download it? how do I connect?
die
callsig: y u no respond pinto?
...roll in grave

tl;dr: save a life and a pinto, and use mumble.

Edit: should clarify - I don't care if you type into mumble or FG or whatever, I just can't usually, especially in flight intensive situations. I have one of the most easily accessible buttons on my joystick mapped to mumble for that reason.

Also, realtime sensitive strategic info is a big risk over FG chat.

Edit2:
Later that day...
takeoff from icao, headed to engage OPFOR with clever strategy
callsig: yeah this will be fun!
climb to 50' agl and get within 85nm of opfor
callsig: oh hey I see them!
80nm
callsig: im heading 380, speed 1000, and they're dead ahead
i hear OPFOR giggling in their seperate mumble channel as they turn dead towards us - 70nm
callsig: pinto i c u below me. wut is ur speed?
40nm
30nm
Opfor1: aim-120 at callsig
Opfor2: aim-120 at pinto
callsig: how do I arm missiles?
start typing in frustratuon
crash
Opfor1: aim-120 exploded 0.0 meters from callsig
Opfor2: aim-120 exploded 0.0 meters from pinto.
callsig: but I was slowing down! cheaters!
die
callsig: y u no respond pinto?
...roll in grave
long live the 88th
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#12226474 Mar 31, 2016 at 11:43 PM
Colonel
456 Posts
Snowy the missiles use APN guidance.

Pinto, damn that must have been frustrating! Mumble for the win.
"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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#12229446 Apr 01, 2016 at 07:44 PM
Captain
240 Posts
I know it uses APN. Does APN involve lofting and cruise altitudes though? I am referring to the graphs in the missile development thread. What property should I look for to log the altitude of the Mirage's AIM-54? I will use the grapher built into Phi.
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#12231614 Apr 02, 2016 at 02:25 PM · Edited over 2 years ago
Colonel
264 Posts
I want to make this clear: this program is more than about just ACM, it also encompasses the real world tactics as well. I made a mock schedule of it on the FlightGear forum some months ago, if you would like to get an idea. Covers ACM to understanding the role of each unit in a section or flight, to communicating with AWACS and your section/flight/ and another section/flight.

If you know something, or have something to share, feel free to do so.


-TheFoxtrotBravo
FB (primary), fb237, USS_FB, <ICAO>_FB, STS-FB (Space Shuttle)
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#12396690 May 21, 2016 at 06:01 AM · Edited over 2 years ago
Colonel
264 Posts
This program really has died off. I guess it is time to revive it this summer! Anybody want co-host it with me? Yesrev? Raider1? Anybody?
FB (primary), fb237, USS_FB, <ICAO>_FB, STS-FB (Space Shuttle)
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#12404709 May 24, 2016 at 06:12 AM · Edited over 2 years ago
Colonel
264 Posts
How about we dedicate an event in July just for training? It would be nice to see each other help one another improve.
FB (primary), fb237, USS_FB, <ICAO>_FB, STS-FB (Space Shuttle)
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#12406945 May 24, 2016 at 11:51 PM · Edited 2 years ago
Captain
240 Posts
Would it be possible to use this thread as a forum for the discussion of strategy?

Also, if (as established earlier on Mumble) the Viggen is neither an energy fighter nor an angles fighter, what is it? A brick? (I would agree.)

What about the MiG-21 (enrogue is developing it) and the F-14?

Can the link to the book be placed in a post so that everyone can access it without bothering you?

Thanks, and feel free to point out the excess of my requests.
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#12407037 May 25, 2016 at 12:57 AM · Edited 2 years ago
Major General
718 Posts
I can't believe I'm about to discuss the weaknesses of my fighter of choice, but here goes.

At low speeds, the Viggen loses energy, fast. It loses in close gunfights, and doesn't carry enough missiles to out-missile our other fighters. At those low speeds, with pitch gearing to acrobatic or off, you can turn like a champ - but you'll bleed 300 KIAS in a heartbeat and have to recover from your inevitable stall. And, to top it off, its vertical and horizontal acceleration leave a bit to be desired.

So, what's the reasons for flying it? It's smooth. And hip.

When fighting, you have to use your head. You have to plan ahead. You have to dump hours into practicing. High altitude, high speed dives are a great counter to the weaknesses of the frame, but what if you are already low? And, at high speeds the elevators lose authority like a mofo, so pull up too late and your dead. And if you over speed, your engine will blow up, and you're dead. I specifically practice these dives because they are really hard to pull off successfully. I have strategies for various altitudes, geographies and positions. It's a chess match for me, and I have to be prepared to fly against the best pilots FlightGear has to offer in planes that are superior.

I fly the Viggen, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.

Also the 30mm ADEN pod is beast.
long live the 88th
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#12407501 May 25, 2016 at 06:02 AM · Edited over 2 years ago
Colonel
264 Posts
Thank you for sharing PINTO. Now I will discuss some of what goes on in my head before and after a merge. Before the merge I am looking for these three things at first:
1. The bogey/bandits aspect relative to me.
2. The number of bogey/bandits. Which are immediate threats, and which are not?
3. The bearing, range, altitude, and don't forget closure rate. In real life and in sim, closure rate can easily meet or exceed 1000 knots, or around 20 miles/minute. Duh, you and your enemy are probably going 500 knots+ at each other. Keep 20miles/minute closure as a rule of thumb. Something you should learn to expect, respect and account for in you decision making (pre-merge and BVR).

Next is to understand where I am relative to the bogey/bandit. After that, I must decide the best course of action to gain advantage, or at least survive. It invokes a fight or flight response. If you know you can't win the fight in your present position, peel back. If you need to make an adjustment of your pursuit angle, altitude, do it quickly and cautiously. Dont forget to observe what is going on around you. You can't just do this once, but keep on looping this process. Sometimes you need to peel off and rethink your strategy. Let's hope you aren't already merged when that happens.

On another note, keep your eyes out of the cockpit on merge. Key them eyeballs fixed on the target! Kill as quickly as you can. Waste no opportunities. Fight dirty and make the bandit fight for it. The longer the fight goes on, the less chances you have making it back.

Look up the Boyd's Cycle, you will see what I am talking about. Observe, Observe, Observe always, Plan plan plan, then act act act!

I prefer the F-15, as it is the most successful aircraft of its type and a very intimidating beast indeed.

And before I end this post, I will say this: if the bandit ever gets on your RQ in a guns situation, often a good idea to get seperation from him and turn hard back into him. In short, don't "dance" around. Either force the overshoot or get out of there. Never let the bandit be within range and on your RQ.

When you merge, the way you should approach the situation is like this: "End it" quick, maintain situational awareness (not just of what's going on in the fight, but also outside the realm of the fight), and try to overwhelm and gain a position if superiority as soon as possible. Be dirty (just don't cheat and break OPRF rules.). Respect one another. Make use of every opportunity, and press as hard as you can when they arise. Easier said than done. If you can't do that, I hope you figure it out quick and (hopefully and somehow) escape 😂. Better hope you eject over friendly territory 😂.

Let's keep the conversation on tactics going.

RQ* = Rear Quarter
FB (primary), fb237, USS_FB, <ICAO>_FB, STS-FB (Space Shuttle)
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#12409637 May 25, 2016 at 09:59 PM · Edited 2 years ago
Captain
240 Posts
How can we force an overshoot in a Viggen considering that the Viggen has no airbrakes and no good way to slow down?

Although it is highly unrealistic, it seems to be possible to deploy the reverser in flight and use it as a method of deceleration. Perhaps I should try that.

Edit: Some sharp turns should drastically slow the Viggen. The above questions still stand, though.
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#12409924 May 25, 2016 at 11:56 PM
Colonel
456 Posts
Why would it be unrealistic?

They welded shut the airbrakes in the mid 80'ties for a reason..

Also see here: PERFORMANCE CHARACTERISTICS OF A SINGLE-ENGINE FIGHTER MODEL FITTED WITH AN IN-FLIGHT THRUST REVERSER
"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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#12412126 May 26, 2016 at 08:30 PM
Colonel
149 Posts
I sue them to slow down in a pinch, or bring my self to a near stall for fun at low alt then full throttle pitched up and clean the desert floor.
When no one can be a winner, we will have a nation of losers. - Me -
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#12412601 May 26, 2016 at 11:11 PM
Captain
240 Posts
Is the Viggen's reverser effective enough to be used for creating overshoots? I am too inexperienced to figure out myself.

Also, I tend to use it as an airbrake on approach. How realistic or necessary is this?

About the Viggen itself, can the real-life Viggen use its reverser in flight? What real-life effects would this have that are unmodeled?

Am I asking too many questions? Wait... That was yet another question.
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#12412619 May 26, 2016 at 11:21 PM
Major General
718 Posts
The Viggen can't force overshoots, the reverser isn't effective enough.

To put this plainly, because it's been answered like 10 times already, the reverser can be used in flight without consequence, this is realistic and is modeled correctly. You can use it as an airbrake to your hearts content. The only time it shouldn't be used is when you are at a full stop with parking brakes on.
long live the 88th
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