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#12152043 Mar 10, 2016 at 12:09 AM
Colonel
444 Posts
Here is one method to evade a missile, or rather to trick it to hit the ground:

The missiles navigation (APN) will lead you, so if you head towards the ground, preferable accelerating, then the missile will plan to intercept you at a point that is actually below the terrain. I order to get to that place the missile will hit the ground and you will be safe. :)
"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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#12154366 Mar 10, 2016 at 05:12 PM
Major General
698 Posts
Freaking genius.
long live the 88th
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#12157431 Mar 11, 2016 at 04:17 PM
Colonel
527 Posts
Well it's the first thing I think about if I'm not too far from the terrain ;)
Mav
Breakin' the sound barrier everyday!
Peace through superior AIRPOWER
5 YEARS OF FLIGHTGEAR (2012 - 2017)

Reaper Eagle Driver, 493d FS.
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#12166595 Mar 14, 2016 at 03:29 PM
Captain
240 Posts
I have been independently using this method for a while. I typically apply it as follows:

  • Approach the fight at about 20000ft initially.
  • If I get close enough to fire before I am fired on, fire the first missile to force the opponent to evade, then turn about 40 degrees and start a shallow descent.
  • When first fired on, dive near-vertically down to ~500ft AGL, and come out of the dive on a course about putting the missile to 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock.
  • When certain that the missile has been evaded, climb to ~8000ft and search for targets. At 8000ft,there is enough altitude for the diving technique to be useful, but not too much so that the missile will not have time to catch up.
  • Remain at about 8000ft and repeat each time the "incoming" warning is heard.

Of course, this procedure can and should be modified to account for each particular case.
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#12169318 Mar 15, 2016 at 07:11 AM
Major General
698 Posts
I've been debating on doing a write-up of my missile avoidance techniques, which I've had a chance to hone after the latest base capture op (looking at you and your aim120's, Raider1). If everything is done right, evading a lot of missiles is quite possible.

Pro-tip: if you're in a Viggen, and you're up against another Viggen, and he fires a '74, start spending flares like a fat kid would use free burger coupons at a McDonalds.
long live the 88th
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#12172575 Mar 16, 2016 at 01:47 AM
Brigadier Ge...
340 Posts
Missile avoidance is an art... but don't forget that you not only have to decide on how you will avoid but also how you will remain in position as you do it. That's the trick!
Raider1

(Combat call-signs: Raid-1, Raid-2)
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#12176036 Mar 17, 2016 at 12:58 AM · Edited over 1 year ago
Captain
240 Posts
#12169318 pinto wrote:

(...) start spending flares like a fat kid would use free burger coupons at a McDonalds.



LOLOLOL

Does this work against any other IR missiles from non-Viggen aircraft or against the Rb-24J?
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#12176078 Mar 17, 2016 at 01:20 AM
Colonel
444 Posts
Nope only against IR missiles from other Viggen (RB74 and RB24J)
"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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#12183817 Mar 19, 2016 at 02:09 PM
Captain
240 Posts
#12176078 Leto wrote:

Nope only against IR missiles from other Viggen (RB74 and RB24J)



What are the main difficulties of modifying other aircraft to be compatible with this system?
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#12184059 Mar 19, 2016 at 03:33 PM
Colonel
444 Posts
That's actually a goal.

But we want to agree on a way to do it, and 5H1N0B1 has made something with IR detection also.

We also want chaff, and ECM. And I believe we will get it. But again, should be a common system.

Just have some patience (some months perhaps).
"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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#12323874 Apr 26, 2016 at 01:28 AM · Edited over 1 year ago
Colonel
444 Posts
So a little more on my experiences of evading and firing, from working with the missiles. Just remember I am far from good at applying this myself when flying, so take it with a grain of salt, hehe.

Evading:

Making the missile pull high G loads

This can be done in various ways. Firstly to put the missile on the beam (3 or 9 o clock) while having a good speed. Secondly to make sudden change in direction, again with a good speed.

The benefit is 2-fold: First the missiles will bleed more energy when doing high G turns, and slower missiles can be easier to outrun. Secondly getting the missile to pull max G will offset its guidance. This is due to that when it pulls max G it actually want to pull even more G. So if the guidance asks the missile to do a 2 degree adjustment, and the missile will have to pull 30 G to do that, it will adjust maybe only 1.2 degree due to its G limitation. This will disturb optimum guidance, and make it less deadly.

Trick how the missile view your your acceleration

Due to how FG send out speed info over MP, the missile will think you fly with 0 AoA and 0 sideslip. This can be exploited by having a high AoA while evading, and its anticipation of where you will be can be thrown of a bit. This will probably not be by alot, but every small advantage helps.

Hide behind terrain

This works pretty well against sidewinders and at less than 10 mile engagements. However at range AIM-120 will approach from above, typically with more than 25 degree pitch down, and will to some extent just fly over the mountain top and hit you.

Fly high

Flying at 45000 ft have the advantage that the missile will not be able to pull so many G. The advantages of that is detailed above.

In conclusion

Keep it on the beam and have a high speed and do sudden change of directions. The worst thing to do is to fly straight and slow and let the missile approach from behind.


And more on firing:

Don't keep too many missiles in the air

Unless you have a very fast PC, each missile can slow down your framerate a bit. So firing 4 missiles at once can often give 4 bad hits, while just firing 1 can give 1 good hit.

Try to fly fast

The slower you fly, the slower the missile will fly. In addition the missile have a minimum speed for it to guide, so this is especially true at close combat where it otherwise barely get time to guide before it reach the target.

Lead the target

Lead the target as you fire is a good idea and helps the guidance. Just as you would with the cannon. This is especially important when you fire at low speed, as the missile will fly straight until it reach a certain speed.

Think of the range

Using the AIM-120 as an example. Its maximum fire range is about 38 NM. That would essentially mean you can expect to hit a target 38NM away when these conditions apply:

1 - Target do not evade.
2 - Target fly straight at you.
3 - Target fly fast (think M1.5+)
4 - You approach it very fast.
5 - You are both at 36000 ft.

The FG missiles are a little more forgiving than that, but don't expect it to hit if several out the above 5 conditions is not met.

So when should you fire it? If you want to make sure of a good chance to hit, you have to estimate the NEZ (no escape zone). In a real fighter the HUD will show this, but we will have to estimate it. NEZ is when the target is so close that the AIM-120 cannot be outran, even with M2.5 and using evasion techniques. It depends on your boths altitudes, speeds and missile type.

Personally I often choose to fire the AIM-120 at around 25 NM, sometimes less. And the AIM-9 at around 5 miles.


Here is two examples of missile hits, one at 40 meters and one at 18 meters. The green paths is the missiles.


"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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#12323904 Apr 26, 2016 at 01:44 AM
Captain
240 Posts
There is also, especially at shorter ranges, the option of making a well-timed dive so that the predicted impact point goes below ground. How effective is this? I know that lofted guidance prevents this from working well at long ranges.
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#12323913 Apr 26, 2016 at 01:51 AM
Colonel
444 Posts
In my experience its hard to get that to work, probably due to its very hard to time correctly. As you must have a terrain impact trajectory when the missile is close but not too close to you.
"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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#12324792 Apr 26, 2016 at 10:32 AM
Colonel
527 Posts
As the first time I got engaged in a serious dogfight was 3 days ago, this will help me to improve my skills of firing and evading. All I need is a constant training.
mav
Breakin' the sound barrier everyday!
Peace through superior AIRPOWER
5 YEARS OF FLIGHTGEAR (2012 - 2017)

Reaper Eagle Driver, 493d FS.
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#12536787 Jul 12, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Colonel
527 Posts
Just a quick advice also to the newcomers: to more aggressive you fly, the more chances you have to prevail in an A/A dogfight.
Mav
Breakin' the sound barrier everyday!
Peace through superior AIRPOWER
5 YEARS OF FLIGHTGEAR (2012 - 2017)

Reaper Eagle Driver, 493d FS.
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#12542033 Jul 14, 2016 at 06:01 AM
Colonel
258 Posts
Just don't be too aggressive and proud, or you will find yourself being a fool and shot down quickly. Don't be predictable out there.
FB (primary), fb237, USS_FB, <ICAO>_FB, STS-FB (Space Shuttle)
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#13393376 Aug 13, 2017 at 01:03 AM
Colonel
444 Posts
I by accident found a neat little trick for evading missiles in the Viggen:

Its all about timing. Whenever somebody fires at you, for example a AIM-120, don't evade. Fire a RB-99 at him immediately, even if you think its not gonna hit. Then spam chaff and flares. Now keep an eye on the MI display, it will show your missile lofting and it will show it dive down on him. When you see it close to hitting him, then you know his missile is also close to hitting you. That's when you start evading, pull 8G and keep doing that, dive as you need to keep up airspeed.

Of course some situations it wont work, if there is more than 1 enemy shooting at you or if he chooses to cut and run (then his missile will hit you before yours will dive on him).

The real reason this is smart is that your losing airspeed when it matters, instead of by evading right away, you will have very little airspeed left when his missile dive on you, and you will be a sitting duck.

Beware that this trick works best if your at same altitude as opponent.
"No one dared to make a slip, the stranger there among them had the big iron on his hip."
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